Resilience Through Change: Lessons From Organic Valley's CIO

In recent years, supply chain has taken center stage. The need for resilience, however, remains central too. Recently, Ron Gilson, Organic Valley's CIO sat down with CGT’s editor-in-chief, Lisa Johnston, and NTT Data’s Jeff Van Pelt to offer their perspectives on building robust CPG ecosystems, touching on user buy-in and technological foundations to the critical role of data quality and the strategic deployment of artificial intelligence. Taking CGT's recently-released supply chain report as a jumping-off point, the speakers looked at some of the ways that supply chain now plays into everything from revenue generation to advancing sustainability goals, to building stronger relationships with consumers.Overall, Gilson emphasized how successful transformation – whether in the supply chain, or more broadly – is rooted in a holistic approach, focusing not only on technology but also on people, processes, and a clear alignment with overarching business objectives. Take a look at the webinar transcript to gain insight into how Organic Valley is driving successful change across the entire company. Lisa Johnston: Hello everyone. Welcome to “How Organic Valley is Fueling Supply Chain Resilience,” My name is Lisa Johnston, I’m the Editor-in-Chief of CGT. This webinar is an extension of CGT’s special report “Inside the Supply Chain’s Step Change.” I'll begin with a quick overview of the theme of the report and will then introduce today’s guests, Ron Gilson of Organic Valley and Jeff Van Pelt of NTT Data.Each year, CGT publishes a special report on the supply chain. This year's report focused on how consumer goods supply chains are moving from cost centers toward value creators. Now, thanks to the pandemic, the importance of having a resilient supply chain was finally given its due. As a result of this, however, supply chain leaders are now expected to contribute significantly to overall enterprise goals, including everything from revenue generation to advancing sustainability goals, to building stronger relationships with consumers.While the importance of investing in supply chain is widely accepted at this point, that doesn't mean it's made navigating disruptions any easier. Although the volatility has settled for many companies, obstacles such as geopolitical tensions, climate disruptions, and some lingering material shortages were all felt this year. To meet today's new mandates, consumer goods companies are continuing to make significant investments in supply chain design and processes. A key part of this for many is to move the supply chain further away from being a cost center and closer towards that value creation role to develop a competitive advantage.Illustrating this priority, a Gartner report noted 73% of supply chain IT budgets this year, on average, will be allocated to growth and performance enhancements. Some factors driving investments in these emerging technologies within the supply chain, include supporting new business / operating models (36%), improve supply chain resiliency / agility (35%), enhancing decision-making (35%), and improving process efficiency/productivity (31%). Consumer goods leaders are settling into the newfound role as a key part of setting and achieving corporate strategy. To do so, they're using new models, process change, and investments in technology to help achieve these goals. "Consumergoods companies are really good at solving problems,” said Tom Madrecki, VP of supply chain and logistics at the Consumer Brands Association. “Everyone's very much aware they can't take their foot off the gas and they're still in a race. There's still a need to keep pace with the consumer. And so they need to keep innovating." This sets the stage well for the next part of our conversation.Let's talk more about the companies that are investing in transformations and innovation to drive supply chain resilience. I’d like to welcome Ron Gilson, chief information officer of Organic Valley, and Jeff Van Pelt, principal of consumer industries at NTT Data Business Solutions. It's great to have you. Can you each tell us a little bit about your background and your roles?Gilson: I’m Ron Gilson, the CIO here at Organic Valley. I joined Organic Valley approximately two years ago. Prior to that, I spent 30 years with Johnsonville Foods, another food manufacturer and CPG organization here in Wisconsin. I have 30-plus years in consumer goods, primarily in food.Johnston: You've certainly been a longtime partner of the CGT brand. Likewise, for you, Jeff, a longtime partner of our brand, great to have you.Van Pelt: First of all, the relationship with CGT has been very valuable for us at NTT. We appreciate all the things you do. My role is a principal for consumer products at NTT – I cover the CPG industry for North America. In that role, my largest function is to tie business processes to technology and ultimately identify where companies can drive business value from technology investments. I have a 30-year background in CPG as well, so you're in good company, Ron. A number of those years were spent at SAP where I had a similar role covering the industry. I also spent some time at IBM and have been with NTT for more than five years now.Johnston: Why don't you tell us a little bit about how you and Ron know each other, specifically the relationship between Organic Valley and NTT?Van Pelt: The relationship with NTT and Organic Valley predated Ron's arrival to Organic Valley. Organic Valley was working with, I'll call it, an older antiquated ERP platform, with a significant amount of integrations. The company had some fairly lofty growth goals and realized that the current technology stack wasn’t going to get them to where they needed to be. About four years ago, they embarked upon an SAP implementation, and NTT was the initial implementer for the first phase of the project.As far as Ron and I, we go back well over a decade together when he was at Johnsonville and I was at SAP. One thing stood out to me in an interaction with Ron, we were sitting at a table at a conference. It was Ron, the head of supply chain, and EJ, Kenny and myself. The topic was Ron's vision on integrated business planning. Today, we're talking about integrated business planning — it's a bit of a déjà vu all over again. Ron was a visionary back then in terms of how to bring all of the different data together to get a better feel for what consumers are looking for, and how to better deliver value to them. It’s a memory that stuck out for me, and Ron, hopefully it stuck out for you, but we've known each other for quite some time.Johnston: Ron, you're going to talk a little bit more about the S4 transformation you're going through, but maybe you can share a bit about Organic Valley. As a dairy operation, its supply chain is likely fairly different from some other CPGs. Can you talk a little bit about these differences and how they might bring some fairly unique challenges?Gilson: Sure. Organic Valley is a cooperative. We're owned by more than 1,500 small organic family farmers, spread across 34 states, I believe, here in the United States. Dairy represents the lion's share of our business, but we also have organic eggs, meat, and produce. We’re a little bit more diverse than just dairy.What's unique about Organic Valley is that we are truly a mission-based co-op. The mission is focused on saving small, organic family farms. That's why we're in business and that's what we strive to do every day — to provide the resources, the marketing, and the organization to continually support our family of farmers, but also grow the number of organic farms across the U.S.. As part of that, all organic ecological sustainability, doing what's good for the planet, and providing great, healthy food for consumers is what we do.A couple of quick stats: Organic Valley, with our farmers, has well over 400,000 organic acres. That's 400,000 acres across the U.S. that are not receiving pesticides and herbicides. When we talk about small for a dairy farm, our average herd size on a dairy farm is right around 80 dairy cows. We truly are supporting the small farmers. Thinking about that and the supply chain that it takes to operate that type of an organization, our mission is to save small family farms. We have a large number, 1,500 small, geographically dispersed farms that are the source of the raw materials we use in our products. That mission, that supply base, inherently creates a complex — you could argue a very inefficient — supply chain, but we develop our supply chain around our farmers. We don't create a supply chain and then try to find farmers to fit it. We are fitting the supply chain around the farmers that we have. Not only do we have that, we're dealing with a committed and sometimes volatile supply chain. You often say, “here at Organic Valley, you can't turn the cows off, the milk keeps coming.” We have to be able to plan for and deal with that supply.Thinking about the environment and all the environmental changes going on right now, the impact of weather on the business can be very volatile. A drought, excess heat, floods, or whatever it happens to be, can dramatically alter the amount of raw material (milk) that's coming through the supply chain. Continually having to balance that supply, the demand, and then get it to the right processing facility to produce the right product at the right time, and get it into the retail partner's channel is the number one operational issue that we have as an organization here.Johnston: You're really trying to connect a lot, quite possibly more dots, than many other CPG supply chains, and you're trying to do it under often some very extreme circumstances. Van Pelt: Adding to Ron's description of the supply chain, we work with a lot of dairies and he's spot on relative to the push-pull nature of the supply chain. The milk's coming in, but then you've got other nuances relative to the raw milk procurement process. You're paying based on butterfat content, non-fat solids, all of these different things that add additional complexity back to the producers. Then, based on shelf life, storage capacity, demand, there are a dozen different decisions to be made that a lot of companies and CGs don't have to worry about. He's definitely got a complex world there.Gilson: It's a natural, biological system. There's certain times of the year where cows produce more milk, and there's certain times of the year where they're not producing as much milk. We’re trying to put systems in place that allow us to be agile and flexible, and make real-time decisions based on what's happening within the supply chain, when you really can't change the amount that you're getting.Johnston: That leads nicely into my next question, almost answering it. You're currently undergoing a major S4 transformation. Can you talk a little bit about the impetus behind this and how it's going?Gilson: The cooperative is approximately 35 years old, we started back in the late '70s. Seven farmers here in Western Wisconsin got together and created the co-op 35 years ago. We've had tremendous growth through the last 35 years. During those years of growth, we implemented a lot of systems and had a lot of best-of-breed solutions, and as the organization continued to grow, we realized new opportunities or new challenges, which many times we threw new systems and processes at as we were growing.The short answer to why we're undergoing this transformation we are today is to modernize both business processes and technology solutions that support those. For the size of an organization we are and what we do every day, we have a very complex technology landscape and some business processes that may not be as standard as we'd like. We have four overarching goals for our transformation:Process and system landscape simplification. We have too many environments, too many solutions that are essentially duplicative in capabilities. We need to simplify the landscape and simplify the business process.Enhancing business planning capabilities. If we have to be nimble, agile, and making real-time decisions, we have to be working off a clean, homogenized set of data. We can't be spending time reconciling data between multiple planning systems or multiple environments. We need to have tools that allow us to make those decisions in real-time. Business planning is one of the key drivers for this transformation.Standardizing business processes. We have multiple lines of business, some of those with divergent business processes that have grown over time. Those need to be brought back and standardized for efficiency and effectiveness. Then, some systems, like many organizations, have technical debt and need to modernize the technology portfolio.Complexity. I truly believe we are overly complex in the system landscape, there's a couple areas where we'll see the benefits. Complexity drives cost. Thinking about the environment, the more systems we have, the more integrations we have, the licensing, maintenance costs, subscription costs, all the integration, maintenance that has to go on between those systems. The more complex we are, the more cost we have in the system. The technical debt and complexity increases enterprise risk around security, as well as around uptime and reliability. The more pieces that we have in the environment, the more points of failure we have, the more entry points — it all creates risk.Complexity, from a business perspective, really limits the agility and flexibility of the organization. Every time we have a changing business need, we have to implement something in one of our solutions or change the business process. There's this ripple effect that goes across this highly complex landscape, creating a lot of additional cost and risk as we try to implement those changes. At a high level, a nutshell, that's the reason we're going after our transformation.Johnston: Jeff, we talked about how Organic Valley has aspects that are unique to its supply chain, but when Ron talks about these challenges and the work you do with other companies, I imagine you're probably hearing a lot of similarities across the industry.Van Pelt: It's definitely more the norm than the exception of companies coming from where Organic Valley came from. From this complex landscape that served its purpose for lots of years, it just doesn't have the staying power to get companies to where they're needing to go today.The companies we talked to going through this — thinking about a digital transformation — really shared four different pillars. The first pillar is people. In our industry, labor is extremely tight, especially in supply chain. Getting the right people in place is fundamental. But, to Ron's point, evaluating and validating your business process is the second step, because if you implement technology with the same processes, you're not getting the value out of the investment. The other thing is data. As we talk about some of these things, how do we create more connected supply chains? The data becomes paramount, and then the tool is just the enabler. If you don't have those other three things, you can go buy a tool that's going to provide very little utility because it doesn't map to what your business is trying to do.In today's world, we work with a lot of mid-market companies that have aspirations to go from 500 million to 1 billion in very short order. But in today's world, companies are living off of Excel and people on the shop floor are working with clipboards. Getting that modernization, getting the things optimized to make that real-time decision that Ron was talking about, is something I see very commonly across the industry.Then, the last thing I'll mention, over the last five years, I've seen a real appetite from companies to adopt best practices rather than thinking everything the company does is extremely unique and special. They're looking at best practices and determining, for those things that are unique and special, if they can go out and do things outside of a best practices mindset. From a cost of ownership standpoint to a deployment standpoint, people are adopting those best practices and adhering to those and then figuring out if it doesn't work, why not? That's a lot of what we see in companies across the consumer products landscape.Johnston: You can't underestimate, you mentioned clipboards. I have a husband who spends a lot of time on shop floors, and he was recently mourning the loss of a good clipboard. They are still definitely widely in use, probably more than people realize.You mentioned data. The report talks a lot about how companies are bringing in more data automation and collaboration tools to advance planning maturity. Part of this includes shaping demand patterns, instead of sensing and responding to them. What's your sense, your perspective on this and how widely this is being done beyond — not just with Organic Valley, of course, but across the industry?Van Pelt: There's definitely an appetite for demand shaping, which is a more proactive view of the consumer vs. traditionally demand sensing, which is reactive. To successfully do that though, you have to have a deep understanding of consumer preferences and consumer dynamics. With the access to first and second party data, getting these types of insights into the supply chain and creating that true demand visibility in a shaping type of sense, is going to become much more mature over time.I was on a webinar recently talking about AI. Someone was talking about the sales and operations planning process and S&OP, he said “In today's world, if we're not taking a look at that consumer data, we're just doing OP, right?” We have to get that mindset to get sales and marketing in lockstep with the operations team to get this demand-shaping thing to reality and fruition.Johnston: One of the key themes within the report is how more manufacturers are investing to evolve their supply chains from cost centers to profit centers. What's your sense on the maturity levels of this across the industry? Where are they currently focusing most of their efforts?Van Pelt: Focusing in a lot of different areas, Lisa. We can talk about how the demand shaping, in theory, is going to create more profitability, better programs, and better connection to the consumer. But there's also things that companies are doing by adding value-added services, whether that's through packaging or transportation, to differentiate them with customers that differentiate and create more of a profit mindset vs. the cost mindset that traditionally goes along with people thinking about supply chain. Fundamentally, it's just the data.Again, a lot of companies spend the bulk of their time and energy on supply chain investment, and demand management and demand forecasting, because candidly, if you get the demand forecast, a lot falls into place. Taking those different demand signals, assimilating those, validating those, and having part of an interconnected system is where the industry's going. Are we there yet? I've seen areas where it's been successful, but there's a lot of companies that are struggling with the blocking and tackling, getting connected, and having real-time data. Then, we'll move on from there to some of those more advanced things to make them into profit centers, vis-a-vis, cost centers.Johnston: Ron, earlier Jeff mentioned the need to have the right people in place during these types of transformations and investments, and throughout any efforts. I imagine you've gone through some significant change management techniques that you've had to adopt. We'd love to learn a little bit more where you're finding the most value and where you're looking to improve.Gilson: There's a significant amount of change going on here at Organic Valley. Not only on the business side of the house — we're eliminating 20-plus legacy solutions to standardize on one common platform, and changing business processes. How I do my job may be different tomorrow. We're moving as we standardize the business process; work is moving from one part of the organization to another part of the organization. There's a ton of change going on within the organization.As part of our transformation, we have a dedicated change management team, and that has a lot of different tentacles to it. We have communications. What makes change successful? You're communicating, communicating, communicating. When you think you've communicated enough, you're only halfway there. There’s tons of communications with lots of different channels. Training is obviously a core component of the overall change process here, and both training on the business side, the end user side of the house, as well as up-skilling our internal IT folks and support teams. HR has been engaged for those changes in roles and responsibilities.Part of our program is a “super user program”. We've taken 40-plus individuals within the organization and put them into a formal super user program — they're still within the business, they have a day job, but they become our advocates. They become our super users in the organization. We’re continually supporting them and bringing them along with the change.Then, we have a whole cut over team — both technical and business process cut over — with the amount of change that you're going to be implementing, the laundry list of activities you have to take to just get to the cut over are critical. Johnston: You're sharing some great best practices. It's funny, I was just thinking I once had a leader tell me when it comes to communicating that if people aren't making fun of you for repeating yourself, you haven't been communicating it enough.Jeff, I'm curious if you have any other best practices or any other techniques that you know when it comes to change management that you've heard that are critical to the business.Van Pelt: Ron covered it pretty well. We encourage companies to bring the end users along for the ride early on. Where I've seen projects fail is where you haven't had that involvement and all of a sudden somebody wakes up the next day and they've got a totally new system.Johnston: A new job.Van Pelt: Exactly. If you're looking to get adoption, value, and buy-in, you have to involve them in the workshops, get their opinions. As Ron mentioned, he has a super user group. I've seen that elsewhere where they're the apostles that can propagate the message down to the masses, in terms of not just the functional capabilities, but the business benefits and how it's going to benefit them and their job. The biggest thing is bringing them along for the ride and showing them that there's value to them. Showing them what's in it for them is something that is human nature. The more that we do that for the user community, as part of the implementations, will be more successful.Gilson: Building on that, the one thing we could have done much better in our program was, we started this program as a technology modernization program. We focused on the technology obsolescence and the technology landscape. We should have, and could have, done a much better job about focusing on “what’s in it for me?” What's the business case? Why are we doing this as a business beyond eliminating technical debt in the organization? One area that — hindsight 20-20 is — we should have focused more time on that particular area.Johnston: I know you just said we shouldn't have focused so much on technology, but I do. I’d like to focus a little bit on the technology for a moment. What are some of the technologies that are going to drive the most progress in developing supply chain resiliency? I have a required question about generative AI. Right now, it's being explored but it's not currently being used within the supply chain, although there are hopes for it. I’m curious to get your take on technologies that you see driving impact in the near, and perhaps longer term, future. Gilson: I've been through a couple of these ERP transformations and always say the fun begins when you're done with the ERP foundation. Right now it's critical that we get the foundation in, get the data clean — nothing else matters. You can talk about GenAI, AI, automation, whatever you want. If you don't have great, clean, consistent, high quality data, none of that is going to matter. That old garbage in, garbage out still applies here. Fundamentally, the things we're looking forward to in the future that are going to drive value are the advanced analytics and data. We've been talking about data and analytics, and advanced analytics for years. It seems 20 years ago, I pulled out my strategy document and created a data science organization. It’s just the tip of the iceberg on what can be possible with a good, solid, consistent, high quality dataset. We've got to focus on advanced analytics and empowering our end users. We talk about citizen development, citizen expertise. We need to push that capability, have the tools, and the curated data sets to allow them to be effective. That's huge.For us, personally, inventory optimization is something that we have to look at. We have a very perishable product. We have fluctuations in demand and supply, so being great at optimizing inventory across the supply chain is going to be huge.Jeff talked earlier about demand sensing, demand shaping, but getting great at trade management, trade programs, shopper marketing — all that requires data, it requires analytics. Those are going to be huge for us. I can go on and on.In terms of AI and GenAI, new technology is coming, everybody gets excited about it and then you spend a lot of time, money, and effort. GenAI's got a lot of opportunity. There's a lot of stuff there, but there's so much stuff that we can leverage that's already built into some of these advanced platforms — we don't have to get excited about everything we could create when we could just start using what's already there. That's the number one thing we've got to do. What's already there? What are we not leveraging that's already out of the box that we can actually, whether it be advanced forecasting algorithms that are available in the solutions that we're not using today or whatever they happen to be. There's a ton there.I'd love to see more maturity in integrated planning. Many of us are good at the siloed parts of planning, we're great at demand forecasting, demand planning, supply planning, or financial planning. We've got to bring this all together in a single platform so that when we're making a change in demand, it's automatically rippled through to our P&L. We can see the financial forecast being impacted by a change in the demand planning environment without having to go through a bunch of hoops, or three weeks of financial shenanigans in the background, to make it work. Those are the technologies, or the capabilities, that I'm the most excited about.Van Pelt: From an AI standpoint, as I look at the industry, we've been using AI and machine learning for quite some time in the manufacturing process. Identifying anomalies in production to reduce scrap and improve throughput. We've been doing those things for quite some time. The thing I encourage companies to do, looking at an AI strategy, is plan it out, have a plan, don't just go after the shiny object. There is some low hanging fruit relative to things like robotic process automation. It's not as glamorous as GenAI, but it can automate repetitive processes and make people more efficient. Having a vision about what you want to do with AI is thing one.The other thing is that companies like SAP are embedding AI into the business process tools that they offer to the customer. You don't necessarily have to have a separate AI bundle or AI track because the vendors that are coming to customers like Organic Valley are embedding those things into the technology.The one other area I'm seeing a lot of interest in is revenue growth management. Tying in everything from assortment to pricing to trade, to try to connect those dots to have a better view of what's going to be successful on the shelf, is something I'm seeing a lot of interest in. It's starting to mature from a technology standpoint, as well.Johnston: I want to talk about collaboration and partnership. Where do you each see more room or opportunity for collaboration with suppliers and other partners across the supply chain? What are the biggest challenges to this and any thoughts on how we can improve them? Gilson: It's a great question. I'm still learning the business here at Organic Valley. I've been here two years, but it’s still drinking from a fire hose as I'm trying to learn the supply chain here. We have a unique set of challenges. Our supply chain includes 1,500 independent family farmers trying to bring more technology to the farm, more data from the farm, more data to the farm to get a better understanding of what's going on in our supply chain. That’s big for us. We also deal with a lot of small processors manufacturing capacity throughout the U.S. Some have different capabilities than others, some have no capabilities from a technology perspective, others are different. We have the opportunity to implement flexible solutions, agile solutions that scale up and down depending on the size of the partner that we're dealing with. We're just scratching the surface. We are not collaborating in an electronic fashion with most of our supply chain partners the way that we can or we should. Fundamentally, we have to get our foundation in place, and then we can start thinking about how to integrate better. That's where we're at.Van Pelt: The whole thing around information sharing is key, and having that become electronic is obviously the goal. We've got joint business planning processes and mutual score carding in place. Those can still be improved by having more transparency to, whether it's on the supply side or the customer side, ensuring that information and coming up with meaningful KPIs, how to measure success jointly, and have honest dialogues. While the industry has come a long way relative to collaboration, there's a wall we need to break down through showing mutual benefit to the activities we're jointly taking, whether it's for the suppliers or retail customers.Johnston: The overall theme of the report, and this webinar, was about building supply chain resiliency. How would you define resiliency from a business perspective? Is it more about anticipating logistical black swan events, or is it more important to define it from a consumer demand perspective?Van Pelt: For me, it's more of the former. Consumer products companies learned a lot during COVID, relative to the fragility of their supply chains. The learnings out of that have created opportunities for companies to not only look at business processes — where did they have gaps, why did those gaps exist — then, have the technology to fill those. In our world, we have such volatility in raw material input costs, we've got inflationary pressures. We have to be ready for anything because the world's not standing still and any day could have an event where it would directly impact my ability to deliver a product or service to a consumer or a customer. They're investing in those processes and making sure that they're closing the gaps that were obviously there during the pandemic, which caused a lot of empty shelves for a lot of different categories. That's where I see them investing time and energy at this point.Gilson: I’ll add on to that a bit. It's not necessarily waiting for the black swan events or having to anticipate those black swans. Every day there's a mini crisis, there's always a fire — it could be gas prices or fuel prices going up, a labor shortage, or whatever it happens to be. Within your supply chain, you have all these different things that on any given day, any one thing could become a barrier, a constraint, or an issue for the organization.From a business resilience perspective, it's about doing all the little things right, having all that data and the capability to absorb all those changes that are coming at you in the supply chain as a normal course of doing business. If I'm prepared, if I have the data, the ability, flexibility and agility to bring in the data and information, and then to rapidly make decisions and respond in a way that's both cost-effective and efficient for the organization, then over time I'm going to be a much stronger organization. I'm going to be a much better competitor and partner to my supply chain partners. The more capable I am in reacting to changes in the environment that I don't have any control of that continually come my way. Johnston: Do you think there's any misconceptions about developing supply chain resiliency?Gilson: I'm not a supply chain expert. Misconceptions, I don't know.Van Pelt: Particularly in our mid-market space there's a misconception that there's an expense. It's wildly expensive to invest in tools to deliver supply chain resiliency, but the juice is worth the squeeze because over time those investments are definitely going to pay for themselves. It's just setting goals and objectives, understanding where the gaps are in current capabilities, and you don't have to implement everything — like the study said, it’s a step change. You can take these things one step at a time. I encourage people to look at what's out there and get started.Johnston: Any final words that you can leave our audience with? Any final best practices that you would like to impart? Gilson: I'll go back to the statement I made earlier about 2020, and what I would've done differently. The change management effort here at Organic Valley, helping with organizational alignment and priority setting, goes back to being crystal clear on what the business benefits are and what the business case is. We focus too much on the technology landscape, the modernization, and not enough on the business. If that's anything, if you're looking at the transformation — you nailed it on the head, Lisa — what's in it for me? Why am I doing this? Why should I be excited about it, outside of replacing technical debt, whatever it happens to be? Again, I would focus on that and that's where it all starts.Van Pelt: To reiterate, again, whether it's investment in supply chain, manufacturing, or sales and marketing activities, those four pillars become really important. Invest in your people, invest in your process. Take hard looks at those processes. Invest in the data, make sure it's all available to all stakeholders, and then the tools will take care of themselves.Johnston: Those are great words to leave us with, thank you. I'm afraid that is all the time that we have today. Ron and Jeff, thank you both for giving us your time today and your subject matter expertise. You can read the full report on consumergoods.com. I'd also like to thank NTT Data for sponsoring today's webinar. Thank you to our attendees for giving us your time today, we hope you found it worthwhile. Have a great rest of your day.